Born Of Fire


Sunday, December 21, 2008

Oregon Judge SLAPPS Self-proclaimed Guru - Landmark Victory for, Internet Free Speech

Press Release - CWC, LLC
Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:41 UTC
Portland, Oregon new age guru Eric Pepin's attempt to silence online critics was defeated Thursday (18 Dec.) as Portland based federal Judge Ancer Haggerty dismissed a defamation suit brought by Pepin's organization, Higher Balance Institute, against an Internet forum that had published critical comments. (Read the Opinion and Order of Judge Haggerty HERE)

Web site, operated by a team of international researchers, initially published pointed criticisms of Pepin's spiritual discovery techniques. After forum participants learned that Pepin had been charged, but acquitted, of having sex with a minor, the site's forum posted opinions that it was "beginning to look like" Higher Balance Institute was a "front for pedophilia" and that Pepin was a "psychopathic deviant" who was "conning the public" into "falling into confluence with psychopathic reality."

Higher Balance Institute sued for defamation, but Judge Haggerty dismissed the case under Oregon's SLAPP ("Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation") statute, which requires plaintiffs complaining of speech on public issues to establish that their case has a reasonable probability of success. The Court ruled that the statements about Pepin and his organization may have been somewhat hyperbolic, but they were opinion on a matter of public interest and protected as free speech.

SLAPP statutes, which exist in several states, are intended to prevent wealthy individuals and organizations from silencing critics through expensive but meritless lawsuits. "This is just how the SLAPP law is supposed to operate," said Stephen Kaus of San Francisco's Cooper, White & Cooper LLP, who represented the defendants. "It prevented this wealthy and relatively powerful man and his company from intimidating our clients from saying what they think."

Pepin, a self-proclaimed psychic and meditation guru, was charged in 2006 with sexual abuse related to an alleged encounter with an underage male employee of Higher Balance Institute. After a trial without a jury in 2007, a Washington County judge acquitted Pepin based on reasonable doubt, although the judge said he believed the acts had probably occurred.

After newspaper articles from the Oregonian about Pepin's arrest and trial were posted and commented on in the forum, Higher Balance sued Laura Knight-Jadczyk and several research and publishing groups she works with, including Signs of the Times (aka, and the Quantum Future Group. Ms. Knight-Jadczyk posted the critical comments that were at the center of the litigation.

Before ultimately ruling that the statements were Constitutionally protected opinion, and not assertions of fact, Judge Haggerty found that the organizations had immunity under the federal Communications Decency Act, which immunizes "interactive computer service" and "information content" providers from liability for statements made by third-party users. The judge dismissed plaintiff's assertion that moderators who posted allegedly defamatory statements were agents of the defendants, stating that the "moderators are unpaid volunteers who do not represent the opinions of defendants."

For the same reason that the court dismissed plaintiff's defamation claims, it also dismissed Higher Balance's false light, intentional interference with business relationships, and intentional interference with prospective economic advantage claims.

The defendants were represented by Cooper, White & Cooper LLP attorneys Stephen Kaus, Walter Hansell, Merrit Jones, and Leila Knox ( ). The case was filed in U.S. District Court in Oregon, Case 3:08-cv-00233.

[Also see my post on TARGET free speech]

Saturday, November 29, 2008

The High Strangeness of Dimensions, Densities, and the Process of Alien Abduction

Book review by Richard M. Dolan
Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:51 UTC
High Strangeness 2nd ed CoverEditor's note: This review is of the soon-to-be-published revised edition of Laura Knight-Jadczyk's High Strangeness. It includes new material, a new foreword, and should be available from Red Pill Press within the coming months!

It's sad but true that most people don't like inconvenient realities to upset their pleasant illusions and prejudices. I see this all the time in my own daily interactions with people. Once someone reaches a point in his or her life when they feel they "understand" the world well enough - often around the age of thirty - they spend the rest of their life filling in the blanks of what they think they already know. It's a tendency that usually becomes more extreme over time. Ideas and worldviews seem to harden in tandem with the arteries.

The friends people make, television shows they watch, the internet sites they visit - the very world they create for themselves - all of these usually support the circumscribed worldview they themselves have adopted.

Obviously, it's the same with books. It's a rare book that has the ability to truly change one's mind about the world. Rarest of all are those gems with the ability to change one's life.

Laura Knight-Jadczyk's The High Strangeness of Dimensions, Densities, and the Process of Alien Abduction is such a book. It follows that such a book can only be written by those rarest of thinkers, someone possessing profound insights, freedom from convention, and the utter fearlessness necessary to tear down illusions and stare down the face of the abyss. Laura Knight-Jadczyk is such a person.

I believe that Laura understands, better than probably anyone you will ever know, just how dire is the plight of our civilization - the plight of our species. She also understands that to change one's life, one must be willing to fight.

"Fight what?" one might ask. The answer may seem strange within the context of our post-post-post modern 21st century setting, but it is ... to fight evil.

Crazy? No. Not at all.

The High Strangeness of Dimensions, Densities, and the Process of Alien Abduction is a book that lays out provocatively and passionately the hidden slavery of the human race. The problem is that this situation is so far removed from what most people have come to accept about their world, that Knight-Jadczyk's analysis and information will meet with tremendous resistance. Calling this book a "new paradigm" is a gross understatement. Understanding it will require most readers to discard nearly everything they think they know about how the world works. I realize this is a significant claim, and I do not make it lightly.

My problem in reviewing this book is amplified by how much of its information was obtained, and therein lies the core controversy surrounding Laura Knight-Jadczyk. Because for more than a decade, she has obtained information - lots and lots of information - from a group of people she calls "the C's": short for Cassiopaeans. In other words, this is information that has been gathered in sessions using a Ouija board and planchette, over and over, year after year.

This is not an easy thing for me to comment on. When my own work focuses so extensively on open source documentation, "proven" data that brooks no argument from established sources, when I have spent my public career with the meticulous caution of a historian to make a careful and reasoned argument on the UFO cover-up, delving into the world of "channeled" information can make me decidedly uncomfortable.

But here is why I feel what the Cs are genuine. In the first place, I have had the pleasure of knowing Laura, of spending time with her in deep conversation, as well as with many people who belong to her global salon, the Signs of the Times (SOTT). In other words, I don't just think that Laura is honest - I know she is. I know that she is a down-to-earth mother of five, who just happens to be brilliant and totally relentless. I have been fortunate indeed to meet many extraordinary people in my life, but even among these people, Laura is special.

So, yes, there is a personal connection here, one of friendship, and a detached reader might wonder if my own judgment is clouded in this review.

But the real issue, as I see it, when reviewing the content of this book, is twofold. First, how can we be sure that the communications from "The Cassiopaeans" are genuine; and second, is there inherent value in those communications?

To answer the first question, all I can say is that her channeled information is not the first, and will certainly not be the last. My attitude on most claimed channeled information usually ranges from extreme caution, to skepticism, to outright disbelief. But I cannot say that all such information is bunk or must be dismissed out of hand. My own research into the history of Remote Viewing (RV) has convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that there is another dimension to our existence other than the straightforward material one. There is something more. Call it non-local, call it spiritual, it does not matter. There is an important aspect to our existence that conventional minds and "official culture" do not recognize.

Taken in that context, when I read the incredibly rich, detailed - and logical - statements coming from "the C's," I find it unlikely that Laura (or anyone, for that matter) could convincingly fake them. In the first place, the process for obtaining this information is from a Ouija board, with several people touching the planchette, and one person in charge of recording the letters, which come in at a furious pace. I have learned enough about the process of using the Ouija, and known enough people who have described this experience to me in detail, that I am satisfied something real is going on in that process. Moreover, the "dialogue" between Laura and the Cs also frequently includes other members of the channeling session who are present. Frequently the transcripts record very active discussions that include the comments and questions of many people in attendance.

I am inclined to think that the C's are real. Yet, we all must recognize that their existence does not pass the test of scientific evidence. We can take their existence as, let us say, an interesting working hypothesis.

But it is the message of the Cassiopaeans that really matters. What they tell us is that the world we live in is an illusion not unlike that of the movie, The Matrix. The human race is being manipulated physically and spiritually by a race of beings that we know as the Reptilians, whom Laura refers as "The Lizzies" (her down-to-earth way of stripping them of their terror and putting them in their place). They can manipulate time with ease, they control "the Greys," and they live in what is known as the Fourth Density.

What is a density? I confess I don't quite understand the physics, and I am not sure that physics is the right path here in any case. But animals live in the second density, and we humans live in the third. It is, therefore, more of a state of consciousness than, say, a "dimension" of existence. The Reptilians are able to manipulate and control us in just the way that we can control cattle. But simply because the Reptilians live in a state of consciousness that is higher than ours does not mean they are ethical. They are, in fact, what we would refer to as pretty evil. They exist in what is called a "Service to Self" (STS) state of being. Humanity also exists in STS. There are other beings, however, such as the Cs, who live in a "Service to Others" (STO) state of being (and incidentally on the Sixth Density).

But the Reptilians can indeed do many things by virtue of being Fourth Density. For one, they can "appear" into our reality at will, in essentially any guise or form. They "need" us as food, both psychically/spiritually and physically. They have farmed us throughout our very existence. They have shaped our religious and political systems. Indeed, in many crucial ways, they have "made" us in their own image. Breaking free of their oppressive control is humanity's paramount task if it is ever to achieve true personal and spiritual liberation.

Incidentally, the abduction process comes into play here as one of several mechanisms by which "the Lizzies" control us. Using their creations, the Greys, to conduct most of the abductions, these events seldom occur in our Third Density reality. Instead, they take place in the Fourth Density, which effectively means it occurs in a timeless, spiritual realm. Yet while in the Fourth Density, life seems just as physical to us as always, and the return to Third Density is like the process whereby one copies and pastes a file back to one's hard drive. That is, the changes (and implants) that occur in the Fourth Density reality are effectively copied to one's Third Density body.

This is certainly a lot to take, and merely scratches the surface. Reading the book is really the only way to grasp it all.

I should point out that not all of this book deals with the Cassiopaeans, although this is its core. But there is a great deal of trenchant analysis by Knight-Jadczyk throughout, something that her readers have come to expect over the years.

The overall message of the book is grim. But the situation is not hopeless. I am very much taken by the motto of the C's, stated several times in the book: "knowledge protects; ignorance endangers."

No matter what the final truth is regarding the existence of the C's, or the Reptilians, or any other entities, I think all of us could use this as a personal motto. We live in a very dangerous world, far more dangerous, far worse, than most people realize. Yet, there is a way to safety, and it lies in understanding the nature of the reality in which we exist. This is hard work, but easily worth the effort.

I am also grateful to Laura Knight-Jadczyk for her courage in facing some of the most difficult issues human beings can face. She is a shining light in a world of darkness.

Richard M. Dolan is author of UFOs and the National Security State: Chronology of a Coverup (Hampton Roads, 2002). He speaks at conferences around the world and has appeared on numerous television and radio programs. Visit his website at

Tuesday, March 11, 2008

TARGET----------------:>Free Speech

From the interrogation scene in the Movie Matrix 1:

Neo: I know my rights; I want my phone call!
Agent Smith: What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak ?

In a topsy turvy world where truth inflames the feeble mind, the feeble mind will attempt to make baseless lawsuits against those who speak the truth. In this topsy turvy world truth is becoming what the psychopathic power possessors of the world say it is and facts have little or no relevance to the truth. The usurping of the legal system is now turning the legal system into the 'power system', which will be used as a tool by the pathocrats to protect the feeble minds who now have the power. Facts are now becoming irrelevant and a hindrance to this legal system. The feeble minds have declared war on freedom of speech and free speech is now in the cross hairs as is evidenced from this precedent making lawsuit against the founder of the website, Laura Knight-Jadczyk.
Below is from the SOTT focus article at

Internet Free Speech Under Threat! Eric Pepin - Higher Balance Institute Sue SOTT for 4.47 Million Over SOTT Forum Comments!

Laura Knight-Jadczyk
Fri, 07 Mar 2008 06:10 EST

Yesterday, as I was working on finishing up the next installment of the Comet Series of Articles, FedEx delivered a packet of mail from our corporate registered agent in the U.S. It was "Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial" filed in the State of Oregon by Eric Pepin's Higher Balance Institute, LLC. The reason? A discussion on the SOTT Forum that begins HERE.

Well, that was entertaining enough when you think about the fact that the discussion that he objects to was centered on several newspaper articles that describe his close calls with the legal system in Oregon over charges of sex abuse.

The legal document I received is 10 pages long so I'm just going to summarize it here. If you want to read the whole thing (it's hilarious beyond belief!) go HERE for the pdf.


Civil No.: CV '08-0233 HA


Limited Liability Company, dba HIGHER

California corporation, and LAURA
KNIGHT- JADCZYK, Defendants.

Plaintiff Higher Balance LLC, dba Higher Balance Institute ("HBI") files this Complaint against defendants Quantum Future Group, Inc. ("QFG") and Laura Knight-Jadczyk and alleges the following:

...defendants committed intentional torts that were purposefully targeted at HBI within the State of Oregon; defendants knew that HBI is a resident of the State of Oregon; defendants' tortious conduct cause HBI to suffer economic harm within the State of Oregon; HBI's claims arise out of defendants' activities relating to the State of Oregon; and the exercise of jurisdiction over defendants is reasonable in light of their intentional misconduct directed towards a resident of the State of Oregon.

As this Court has specific personal jurisdiction over the defendants, venue is proper in this district and division under 28 U.S.C 1391(a)(3)

General Allegations:

HBI is an Oregon-based company with over 40,000 customers from all over the world. HBI is dedicated to helping its customers relieve stress, reduce anxiety, and achieve emotional balance and spiritual enlightenment through meditation techniques. The majority of HBI's revenues are derived from the online sale of its books and CDs, which are designed to help its customers learn these meditation techniques.


Defendant QFG operates a website known as Signs of the Times ("SOTT"). QFG posts articles and sponsors forums regarding various conspiracy theories and allegedly corrupt organizations on the SOTT website.

Employees and agents of QFG, including defendant Knight-Jadczyk, serve as administrators and moderators of SOTT forums. QFG employees and agents, including defendant Knight-Jadczyk, post comments and analyses in SOTT forums. These employees and agents act within the course and scope of their agency for QFG when serving as administrators and moderators of the SOTT website and when posting comments and analyses on the SOTT website.

SOTT forums are available to the general public online.

...Many of HBI's existing and potential customers read the SOTT website as a source of alternative media....

FIRST CLAIM FOR RELIEF - Defamation - Libel

....Beginning in May 2006, QFG sponsored a forum on the SOTT website concerning HBI under the heading "COINTELPRO."

Beginning in November 2007, defendants intentionally posted several false, baseless, and derogatory accusations concerning HBI on the SOTT website including, but not limited to:

a. HBI is a "front for pedophilia";
b. HBI is a "cointelpro" organization;
c. Meditation, as sold by HBI, is an act of "falling into confluence with a psychopathic reality";
d. Those associated with HBI must be careful to avoid sexual molestation by HBI members;
e. HBI is conning the public;
f. "Fishy sexual conduct is occurring at HBI; and
g. HBI "leads people more deeply into sleep."

By posting these statements in a public internet forum, defendants have published and communicated false and baseless accusations concerning HBI to third parties, including existing and potential HBI customers.

Defendants' statements tend to subject HBI to hatred, contempt, and ridicule and tend to diminish the esteem, respect, goodwill and confidence in which HBI is held by the public and by its customers.

Defendant made these false statements with knowledge of their falsity or with reckless disregard for their truth.

As a result of defendants' false and defamatory statement, HBI suffered general damages in the form of loss of reputation in an amount to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $500,000. HBI has also suffered special damages in the form of lost income in amounts to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $834,732.

Defendants defamatory statements are still available to the general public on the SOTT website and are easily found through internet searches relating to HBI. Defendants conduct causes HBI irreparable harm, and HBI is entitled to an injunction preventing defendants' continued defamation of HBI.


Defendants intentionally gave publicity to matters concerning HBI that placed HBI in a false light before the public. etc

...economic damages ... not less than $834,732.

THIRD CLAIM FOR RELIEF: Intentional Interference with Economic Relations - Interference with Business Relationships

Defendant intentionally interfered with many of these business relationships by communicating the false and defamatory information listed...

...economic damages ... not less than $97,299.

HBI... has also suffered damages in the form of loss of reputation ... damages .... not less than $500,000.

...Defendants conduct was malicious and warrants punitive damages...

FOURTH CLAIM FOR RELIEF: Intentional Interference With Economic Relations - Prospective Economic Advantage

Defendant's interference has diminished the esteem, respect, goodwill, and confidence in which HBI is held by the general public, thereby hindering HBI's ability to obtain many new customers with whom HBI had a prospective business relationship. ... damages to be determined at trial...

...On its First Claim for Relief, that HBI be awarded general and special damages in amounts to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $1,334,732, and that defendants be enjoined from their continued defamation of HBI.

...On its Second Claim for Relief, that HBI be awarded damages in an amount to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $1,334,732. and that defendants be enjoined from continuing to place HBI in a false light.

...On its Third Claim for Relief, that HBI be awarded damages in an amount to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $597,299. plus punitive damages, and that defendants be enjoined from their coninued interference with HBI's prospective business relationships.

...On its Fourth Claim for Relief, that HBI be awarded damages in an amount to be determined at trial, but in any event, not less than $1,205,000 plus punitive damages, and that defendants be enjoined from their continued interference with HBI's business relationships.

... That HBI be awarded pre-judgment and post-judgment interest on all damages recovered.

...That HBI be awarded its costs and disbursements incurred in this action; ...

Harry and David demands a trial by jury on all issues so triable.

25th day of February, 2008.

Bullivant houser Bailey PC
Renee E. Rothauge
Chad M. Colton
Tel 503.228.6351
Attorneys for Higher Balance Institute

Whoah! That's some heavy duty stuff, eh? Sounds like we just ripped up on that poor guy for no reason at all!

But that's not quite the situation. The original article about Eric Pepin that was brought to our attention on page 5 of the above-mentioned forum thread read as follows:

A 39-year-old Aloha man who promises spiritual awakening through meditation books and CDs he sells on the Internet is facing sex-abuse charges.

Beaverton police Detective Mike Smith said Eric J. Pepin runs what appears to be a cult out of his Higher Balance Institute on Southwest Second Street in Beaverton.

Pepin was arraigned Tuesday in Washington County criminal court on one count of using a child in a display of sexually explicit conduct, two counts of second-degree sexual abuse, and four counts of third-degree sexual abuse. He was released after posting $26,750 cash, or 10 percent of $267,500 bail. A trial was set for Sept. 12.

Using a child in a sexual display is a Measure 11 crime punishable by a mandatory minimum of 5 years and 10 months in prison.

Jamison Dwight Priebe, 21, who works for Pepin and lives at the same address in the 19600 block of Southwest Cooperhawk Court in Aloha, also was arrested on one count each of using a child in a sexual display and third-degree sexual abuse.

Priebe and Pepin turned themselves in at the Washington County Jail last week after a grand jury handed down secret indictments. Priebe was released after posting $25,375 cash bail and is awaiting arraignment Monday.

Smith said a man who is now 20 was 17 and working for Pepin when he allegedly was sexually abused at the Higher Balance office in the 11900 block of Southwest Second Street in Beaverton and at Pepin's former home in the city.

A call to the Higher Balance Institute on Wednesday was answered by a "Personal Star Reach Coach," who referred questions to Pepin's private attorney, Sam Kauffman.

"The charges are false, and we are confident Mr. Pepin will be exonerated," Kauffman said.

Pepin's Web site claims he has located more than 100 missing persons and runaways, along with U.S. Navy submarines, through a psychic ability he calls "remote viewing."

Pepin's meditation systems, which sell for $79 to $149, help customers develop their "sixth sense" and apply it "inward to awaken a dimensional universe within the mind," the Web site says.

According to an affidavit Smith filed with a request for a search warrant, the alleged victim told police that Internet customers who rave about Pepin's teachings are men and women usually older than 35. But, the man said Pepin told him he should recruit "good-looking men" between the ages of 18 and 24 to work for him.

The court record also says Pepin knew the man was 17 when he forced him to perform sex acts.

The boy, Smith wrote, "was taught by Pepin to believe that the sexual contact was only a spiritual necessity." But after a while, the affidavit says, the boy decided he was being used by Pepin, who bought him meals and paid him $200 after sex.

The man contacted Beaverton police in January.

Smith said anyone who may have had underage sexual contact with Pepin should call him at 503-526-2280.

Smith said the man accusing Pepin told police he met one of Pepin's followers at Beaverton Town Square in April 2004. He told Smith the recruiter invited him to meet Pepin and see him demonstrate levitation.

Pepin introduced himself dressed in a robe emblazoned with the words "Master Eric" and a triangular symbol and told the victim to take off his shirt, the detective said.

"It's a cult," Smith said, "anytime you have a guy who fancies himself as the master, the leader."

In another story from Associated Press found HERE, we read:

Beaverton police Detective Mike Smith said Pepin operated the Higher Balance Institute in Beaverton. Smith said the ornate robe emblazoned "Master Eric" turned up during a search.

Well, I've been falsely accused of trying to start a cult myself, so I might ordinarily have had sympathy for Pepin, but when I read the bit about the robe, I blew my tea through my nose. I guess that's why I'm such a failure as a cult-leader (aside from the fact that I'm not interested in the job) - I hardly ever wear anything other than sweats and bedroom slippers and spend all my time working!

In any event, even though a grand jury felt that there was enough evidence to indict Pepin, he was eventually acquitted in trial before a judge as the following report informs us:

Institute leader acquitted of sex charges

HOLLY DANKS - HILLSBORO -- A Washington County Circuit judge called the leader of a metaphysical Internet sales company manipulative and controlling and his testimony unbelievable, even as he acquitted him Wednesday of charges that he had sex with an underage boy.

Judge Steven L. Price, after a five-day trial without a jury, found Eric James Pepin, 40, not guilty of two counts of second-degree sexual abuse, four counts of third-degree sexual abuse and one count of using a child in a display of sexually explicit conduct.

Also acquitted of third-degree sexual abuse and using a child in a pornographic display was Jamison Dwight Priebe, 21, who has worked for Pepin's Higher Balance Institute since he was 18.

"Everybody has stood by me who knows me," Pepin said Wednesday after hugging supporters. "They had faith in me, prayed for me. I told them I wouldn't let them down. I did nothing of what was alleged. I've been nothing but honorable and impeccable."

However, Price said it was "probable that the conduct alleged in all counts occurred," but he wasn't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. "There's a lack of strong corroboration," such as a date-stamp on a videotape of the sexual encounter, the judge said.

The accuser testified Pepin had him take off his shirt the first day they met at Pepin's Beaverton home in April 2004.

"He was going to try and fix my energy and he needed me to trust him," the accuser said. Pepin touched the teen's "chakra points" on his heart, head and lower abdomen.

"Eric asked me to tell him everything I had done in my life that I was ashamed about," the teen added.

The accuser said Pepin asked him how old he was the first day they met and that he told him the truth.

"He said students had to be 18 because he didn't like parents fussing around," the accuser said.

But within days the two were having sex, including a three-way encounter with Priebe, the youth testified. Pepin called it "crossing the abyss," the accuser said, "surrendering yourself to your teacher, your master."

Pepin testified he is gay and has had sexual relationships with most of his 11 employees, but not before they were 18. Pepin said he gave his accuser a job, even though the teen was a poor worker, and continued to be intimate with him and give him money after he was fired, to help him out.

Stephen A. Houze, Pepin's private defense attorney, called the accuser a liar more than 100 times in his closing argument and noted that Pepin was "the perfect patsy" because society wants to believe the worst of a gay man. Houze said the accuser brought the charges because he wanted to shake down Pepin.

Pepin's Higher Balance Institute, now on Northwest Saltzman Road in Cedar Mill, reached an annual high of $2 million in Internet sales of meditation CDs, tapes and books before his arrest in July.

Pepin touts himself as a psychic and "remote viewer" who has found lost submarines and missing people, and says he created the "psychic pill" Magneurol6-S that enhances brain function, heals nerve damage, heightens paranormal experiences and relieves stress for $79 a bottle.

Andrew Erwin, deputy district attorney, called Higher Balance nothing more than a sex cult run by a "snake oil" salesman who preys on the troubled.

The accuser had nothing to gain by going to police and turned down $250,000 from Pepin to drop the sex charges, Erwin said.

"I'm disappointed," Erwin said of the verdicts. "The judge wants proof beyond all doubt and that's too high a standard."

And now, Pepin wants to sue QFG and yours truly for talking about these articles, published in a newspaper and scattered across the web (though all of them are no longer on the newspaper's website, wonder what's up with that?)!!

Notice that Pepin, himself, revealed his "sex cult" practices in his own testimony. We'll be trying to get transcripts of the trial to publish so our readers can hear it from the horse's mouth; stay tuned for that.

Notice also that Pepin's attorney, Houze, accused the victim of bringing charges because he wanted to shake down Pepin even though the kid turned down 250 K hush money offered by Pepin. Well, maybe that's what gave Pepin the idea of suing me. Only thing is, he's gonna have a hard time collecting his 4.47 million because I don't own a thing, live in a rented house, drive a used car and QFG rarely has more than a grand in the bank at any given time. When we have fund-raisers, the funds are used almost instantly, repaying loans and covering basic expenses for the site and equipment.

It's also humorous that Pepin is suing QFG which only sponsors a world-wide group of independent researchers who, together, make up QFG doesn't own sott, nor does QFG have any employees nor any official oversight of anything that the researchers say or do.

But the bottom line is this: Eric Pepin is convicted out of his own mouth of being a sexual predator. I mean, what kind of teacher of meditation says that he has sex with all his employees? And all of them young men?

Nope, we aren't backing down. We firmly believe, based on available official documents and court records, that Eric Pepin is a danger to innocent people looking for spiritual guidance. Obviously, young guys just looking for sex and money and a good time will be delighted to take his pills, listen to his tapes and attend his retreats. But the wider public who are not aware of these things in Pepin's background, who are not aware that even the judge who acquitted him regretted having to do so, and that the Prosecutor of the case was also convinced that justice had NOT been done, need to be warned about this sexual predator in our midst.

Maybe Eric Pepin will take down, we don't know. We don't have money for an expensive defense attorney, we barely stay afloat. But even if that happens (and we hope our readers will help us out now as never before), there are others who know and I don't think that Eric Pepin and all his minions can track down and silence all of them.

Even if you can't give to our legal defense fund, I will appreciate letters of support during this trying time. Write to sott(at) and I will try to answer each and every one.

And thanks to all our readers for your constant support and encouragement

Wednesday, May 02, 2007

Underwater and Undgerground Bases: SOTT Interview with Richard Sauder

Transcript of Laura Knight-Jadczyk interviewing Richard Sauder on Underground Bases

Underwater and Undgerground Bases: SOTT Interview with Richard Sauder

Joe (J): This planet is controlled and locked down, and has been for centuries if not millennia. And the question is, why? Why must planet Earth be locked down, dumbed down, so thoroughly controlled, and for so long? Why? Who and what is behind this? This is just one of the questions asked by Dr. Richard Sauder, Laura Knight-Jadczyk's guest on this week's Signs of the Times podcast. Richard is the author of several books that minutely detail US government research and development of electronic equipment which can be used for mind control, and the disconcerting topic of underground and underwater bases and tunnels.

The day before 9/11, the Pentagon admitted that it could not account for 2.3 trillion dollars. To this day, no one knows where that money is. "REX 84" is short for Readiness Exercise 1984. First revealed during the Iran-Contra hearings in 1987, REX 84 is a US government plan, for which an undisclosed number of concentration camps were set in operation throughout the United States. The purpose for these camps: internment of dissidents and others potentially harmful to the state.

The Miami Herald reported on July 5th, 1987 that REX 84 was like a government within a government, and that these camps are to be operated by FEMA should martial law need to be implemented in the United States, and all it would take is a Presidential signature on a proclamation and the Attorney General's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. There are 300 million American citizens. In the event of widespread civil unrest, FEMA's 800 prison camps, at 20,000 per camp, could hold a maximum of 16 million disgruntled American citizens. But surely widespread civil unrest in America would involve more than 16 million or 5% of the population? What about the rest? What has the Pentagon and dozens of defense contractors been doing for that 3.2 trillion lost dollars? Listen to this week's Signs of the Times podcast to find out.

Laura(L): Um...the first thing I want to talk about here is this: you've got this new edition of Underwater and Underground Bases, which I guess is a new edition of the original Underground Bases and Tunnels. Is that correct?

Dr. Sauder(S): Well, it's not really a new edition; it's an entirely separate book that stands on its own.

L: Ah...

S: There is some overlap in material but it would be on the order of 1 or 2%. It's, it's virtually a new book, hence the different title- similar but different. The theme that this, you know, the subject matter, is similar, but no, the content is not identical. Those who liked the first book will like this third book, which is actually my third book.

L: Right.

S: Although, you could say in one sense it's a sequel to Underground Bases and Tunnels.

L: Right. Well, the, one thing I'm sure that you know the average person would want to know is, what got you interested in the subject of underground bases?

S: Well you know, that's been a lifelong interest. When I was a kid in elementary school, I think it was about in the 1st or 2nd grade, I won a spelling bee, and uh, went to a little two-room country schoolhouse that I walked to a mile each way, and my brothers and I - it was out in the woods and the fields there, in rural southeast Virginia - and I won a spelling bee, and its prize. I won a book about caves: spelunking and caves, which fascinated me to no end. I guess maybe that was an initial jolt to my interest in this topic.

But then I, later on gave it no thought, and actually did not concern myself with things that were going on underground; just was not on my mental horizon, until, for some reason, when I moved out to the Southwest, in the um, late 1980's to do my doctoral program in political science. I heard people talking about a purported underground, a purported secret underground network of tunnels through which there were allegedly little grey aliens and clandestine and covert elements of the United States military and M-IC operating these uh, sci-fi-like tube shuttle trains.

L: Did you think these kind of things were crazy?

S: Pardon me?

L: Did you think those kinds of ideas were crazy?

S: No, you know, what I thought was that they were very, um, interesting stories.

Now, I have to interject that as an adolescent I wrote read tons of science-fiction, I mean it wouldn't be fair to say I read it; it would be more accurate to say that I inhaled entire stacks of science fiction novels. And, so I mean, I couldn't even tell you how much, just, oodles of it, thousands and thousands and scads of pages of science fiction. So of course, in the course of, in the process of reading all of that, um, science fiction I got exposed to all kinds of um, interesting thoughts and concepts to which I was drawn to like a moth to a light. And, so when I heard these stories when I moved out southwest, I thought, you know, they have a certain currency there in the culture, and, and a fair number of people would discuss these things, and so I started thinking, why are people talking about this? and I didn't dismiss it out of hand. I did think it was unusual. I also knew that I didn't know if the stories were true or false, but I kind of mentally filed them; they interested me, but I didn't know what I could do about it.

So, if you've ever been in an intensive academic program in graduate school, you know that it, uh, you [need all your?] time and energy; it's virtually all-consuming. So I really didn't have time to look into this. However, after I finished my comprehensive exams, and moved onto, and uh, uh got my thesis proposal accepted by my committee, I uh, I had a little more time and uh, control of my schedule, so I looked into this, and I wrote a short article for UFO Magazine out in Los Angeles and it was published by Vicki Cooper and Don Ecker.

L: Ah, yeah.

S: And uh, it appeared in early November of 1992. And, in the article I basically said that um, I, well I could neither prove nor disprove these stories of the uh, so-called jointly-administered or operated or run highly secretive hi-tech facilities underground, uh, you know, operated by uh, clandestine elements of the United, the American M-IC and, uh, alleged little grey aliens. That I, uh, that I couldn't prove it or disprove it.

L: Right.

S: I wouldn't dismiss the stories out of hand; on the other hand, I wouldn't just gullibly uh, accept them on someone's say-so. And, I did say that nonetheless, doing a search of the open literature, I could say that there were a lot of, uh, underground facilities, bases, and installations operated by a variety of government agencies such as FEMA, and quasi-government agencies like the Federal Reserve, the Department of Energy, the Department of Defense, and so forth. And you know, a good number of those are sprinkled around America.

L: These are ones that are admitted to or acknowledged?

S: These are.

L: Okay.

S: And anyone can find them if they're willing to do a little digging, if you pardon the pun, as I did. It didn't take me too long. Uh, at the first cut you're going to find those. Sites like Site R, up on the border of Maryland and Pennsylvania, something like an alternate underground Pentagon command center, it's been there for decades. Or the, uh, fairly well-known underground Manzano base at Kirtland Air Force base in Alberquerque or the NORAD underground base, out in, under Cheyenne Mountain in the Rockies of Nevada...

L: Right.

S: or, the multiple underground FEMA bases like the ones north of Denton in Texas, the one down in South Georgia, the one at Basil(?) Washington, the one just north of Washington DC, off of Wilkes Road in suburban Maryland, and there are a number of these around the country run by FEMA. And, you could, and then the DOE underground stuff out in Nevada, and various other places, and you can find those mentioned in a variety of articles, books, and government documents, and you don't have to look that hard to find them.

L: Right.

S: Even doing a keyword search online will turn up a fair amount of this stuff. Now, so I found these things, and, I wrote a brief article and talked about it and said, you know, well, I can't say anything about this clandestine stuff and/or aliens, purported aliens underground, I can't say. Indeed there are, a good number of high security underground facilities, bases, and installations run by the federal alphabet soup, and, so I left it at that. And now I know so much more than I did then, but, although, that wasn't a bad first cut at it. The article was pretty well received, and that's, you know, like almost 15 years ago now, 14 1/2 years ago. When the article appeared, in early November, and at that point I felt like, well, you know I've been there and I've done that. Case closed, slam dunk.

L: Right.

S: And,

L: Famous last words.

S: Exactly. So I was, you know, snug-a-bed, the last week of December, and if you've ever been at a university, any large university, in America, the last week of December is the deadest month of the year. Everything shuts down, even the libraries.

L: Right.

S: So, even those that are the kinds that pry out of the library at 1 o'clock in the morning as I was, have to go home and rest. So there I was, fast asleep in the wee hours of the morning. It was, I don't remember the precise date, but it was the week between Christmas and New Year's in 1992. And all of a sudden, I was wakened out of a deep sleep, and I didn't know why. Certainly I was laying flat on my back in the dark, mentally alert but still very physically relaxed. It happened within just, two or three seconds, "Bang!" I was awake.

So I was lying there thinking well, isn't this puzzling, what's going on. And I didn't have to wonder long because right out of thin air I heard a, an, um, a voice speaking in my ear. And it was a man's voice, this was a disembodied voice, I didn't see anyone, indeed, I didn't have a sense that anyone was physically present in the room. I didn't feel alarmed, I didn't feel scared. I've had, I would say, a large number of anomalous and paranormal experiences over the years, ever since very early childhood continuing right down to the present day. And so, for me to have an anomalous paranormal-type experience didn't frighten me, it's happened so often, that for me it didn't, it wasn't that unusual. But what he said was, I heard the voice of a male, an adult male speaking normally accented, late 20th century North American English; in other words, it could have been the voice of any one of many millions of men. It sounded to me as if he were a literate person who had had a university education, but again, right there you're talking about tens of millions of people. And uh, well what he said was most interesting. He started out like this, and in a very matter-of-fact, calm, way he said, "The underground bases are real."

L: Whoaaa.

S: And he paused for half a second for a little bit of dramatic effect and then he went on to tell me for two or three minutes in broad terms indeed, that there are a lot of underground facilities and bases and there are secret projects and programs being carried out down there; that the scope of all this is very large; that a lot of money and technology and people are involved and that as he spoke I got the very real impression of government agencies involved; companies and corporations, and of great stealth and secrecy and high tech and much ado about a great deal, as a matter of fact.

L: Hmmm...

S: And he also impressed upon me, that this is something that in general people didn't know about. Most people are just oblivious to it. In fact until that year, I had been! So he went on in that fairly general way, and as he spoke I got the idea, I was thinking: 'Man! This is big! There's really a lot involved in this. Money, technology, people, secrecy, you know. There's a lot going on down there, it's really grand'.

L: Let me ask you. Did you get the impression that this was truly a paranormal...?

S: No, I felt it was electronic telepathy.

L: Okay, so you think it was like being beamed?

S: [Interrupts] ...he was speaking, that's what I felt and I still do. In fact - and I explore this a little bit in Kundalini Tales, and I discussed this episode a little bit at the beginning of Underwater and Underground Bases - and what I felt was that it was not a naturally telepathic communication you might receive from a yogi or a natural born telepath, or something like that. I felt like it was electronic or technologically enhanced, if you will. So, my feeling is, and I went out and did a patent search as a matter of fact, where actually, I was alerted to this by an Austrian researcher - Helmut Lammer - the very good Austrian researchers who no longer do this type of research that they’ve gotten out of it. But Helmut had run across this patent and some of his research, and then I subsequently did more searching and found a whole slew - and there are even more now - of patents pertaining to the electronic control of the human mind and human awareness and consciousness [L: mhmm], and so this is really old technology [L: Right], this is mid-twentieth century technology [L: Oh, yeah!] and even before!

L: Richard Dolan writes about it in his UFOs and the National Security State, also.

S: Yeah, well I don’t know where Richard heard about this. But Richard and I have certainly talked many times in recent years, in person and also on the phone; in many emails too. Richard and I have talked about all kinds of topics, including these sorts of topics. I mean, it’s not only Lammer, Dolan and me; a lot of people now are aware of this and I’m glad that this body of knowledge is slowly gaining traction and currency. It’s a reality - the technology for the electronic manipulation of human consciousness and the human mind is well advanced and it’s insidious!

L: Exactly.

S: But anyway, from the very beginning - even as this guy was talking - I was thinking (and this was in the first two or three seconds) that that was the case. And I also had the very real impression that I wasn’t hearing from a demon or an angel [L: Right] or from an extraterrestrial or from God - you follow me [L: mhmm] - or that I was mad or losing my mind [L: Right] or deranged.

L: You knew what you were dealing with.

S: I felt then and I still do, that I was hearing from the proverbial insider; it was an inside leak using some inside technology and this man for whatever reason, probably had read the article that had come out just several weeks before [L: Ahhh!] and the magazine, and had decided to give a 'data dumps' if you will, to Richard Sauder in the wee hours of the morning.

L: Very interesting!

S: Now, of course, you know that anyone with access to modern database technology - unless you're an absolute hermit in the middle of the wild – can find you. If you pay water, phone or electric bills; or if you get financial aid from a federal agency, they’ll know your phone number and physical address which can be found in thirty seconds. [L: mhmm] So, once they know where you live, it’d be a pretty fair assumption that you would be sleeping there [L: Right] and so I think it'd be child's play for someone with access to talk at your house with a transmitter from an orbiting satellite, for example, in the middle of the night. If you had clout and was high enough in the military-industrial-complex, you could probably get a couple minutes of satellite time.

L: Yeah... no doubt.

S: If you were in the NSA, NRO, the DIA or Army Intelligence, Naval Intelligence, L&I something like that, I think you could get it for a couple of minutes.

L: (Laughs) That sounds like a very reasonable explanation.

S: Now the question is, why? Presumably the intent was on the part of this person - who was probably not alone - to further spark my interest, and ratify what I started to do, and say (though my name was never mentioned, it didn't need to be), 'By the way Richard, you're onto something, listen here. There's a great deal more in that direction, so why don't you dig a little deeper and see what else you can find. I think that was the plan and implication of it, and it implied that there were people - so called insiders - who are troubled [L: Who would like to 'come out'] and would like to speak about some of what they've seen. But if you have excessive security clearances you just can’t go on Coast to Coast AM or Laura Knight-Jadczyk’s internet podcast and spill your guts.

L: Right

S: Because the penalties for violating those security clearances are very severe. The average person doesn’t want to spend the rest of their lives in the prisons at Leavenworth, or be assassinated or have their pension taken away from them in their old age.

L: Nowadays they'd put you in Guantanamo.

S: Yeah, something like that, or make you 'disappear' Central American dictator style.

L: Mhmm.

S: So, it'd be a rare person who would go public and so I did dig into it more deeply and I found that there was a paper trail and I think the long and short of it is that so much has happened underground and from what I can see, certainly undersea as well. [L: mhmm] When you have large corporations and government agencies throwing around large amounts of personnel, money and technology over a period of decades, it generates so much paper you simple cannot hide it all. You can’t shred it all. You can’t classify it all, because there’s so a large volume of it. At least some of it is going to filter through the cracks and end up in archives, or in government document repositories and so forth. At least some of it will filter out into the popular culture, magazine articles, in books and conversations and people who have been involved in the construction activity or planning - simply because there are so many thousands of them - not all of it can possibly be controlled. [L: Right] Most of it can, almost all of it can, but not all of it. So what I’ve picked up are the crumbs - quite a few – and they tell the tale, and the short tale is that there appears to be a lot going on underground and it appears very likely that there is a lot going on undersea as well, and we’re talking James Bond style undersea and underground installations.

L: Let me interject right here because I'm sure that the listener would be interested to know that the evidence that you present in these books, is literally government documents, patent applications or approvals, actual literal paper trail of these types of things that you've gotten much of it by the Freedom of Information Act.

S: That's what really sat a lot of my work apart and went to multiple printings, and were actually considered underground bestsellers.

L: This is not speculation.

S: No it's not speculation. My books are out of print at the moment, but I probably will re-issue them in the next year or two.

L: Well, let's hope so because right at this particular point in time, it's looking like we might be seeing one of the reasons behind the construction of these massive underground complexes; which leads to the question: what have you come across that indicates the reason - the perceived necessity - for underground installations.

S: Well, I can tell you that from conversations with insiders, my research, from reasons that are explicitly discussed in the documents themselves, and drawn conclusions of my own – some of the reasons of course are preparation for possible nuclear war (which has been with us for my entire life) and still is [L: Right] and so in that case, the military-industrial-espionage-complex wants to burrow underground for command control, and communications purposes and so there was a lot of that that happened and still does; preparations for natural catastrophes, things like apocalyptic scenarios such as massive geological upheaval, due to potential shifting of the earth's axis. Geologists know well that this has happened more than once in the past, and so they don't know why exactly it happens - at least if they do they're not saying so publicly - they only know that it has happened. The alignment of the continents has not always been as it is now, and that if there should be geological upheaval, one of the safest places to be would be in a well designed underground installation in a competent body of rock. [L: Hmm] It would be safer than being on the surface. [L: Hmm] Also the possibility of the Earth entering into a different region of the galaxy because we’re always moving along at a very high rate of speed as it rotates through space. The Earth and the cluster of stars that it’s part of - we’re actually part of the Pleiadian cluster - you know, themselves move within the galaxy so as it rotates the Earth moves into a different sector of space. They could run into forms of rogue planetoids for example, or comets, meteorites that type of thing [L: Right] that could impact the Earth and cause problems. It could be massive climate change and again, it appears like the climate has been destabilized now and it's something that is going on with the Sun and the solar system and this planet.

L: And they're aware of these things?

S: I think so, yes. You could also have disruptions in the physics of the Earth's rotation for a variety of reasons, some understood and some not. These are some of the things that have been mentioned to me and in that case for survivability reasons, you would want to have secure underground facilities that you could refer somewhat to in a 'Noah's Ark' fashion.

L: But they’re not telling the public certainly.

S: No, not really. But it's a case of as Jesus said, let those who have eyes to see, see; and those with ears to hear, hear. They're not telling the public exactly, but indirectly they are in a way, through me in that I have been permitted to publish books on these titles and magazine articles and go on the internet and be interviewed by you for podcasts; also to do numerous network radio shows over the last twelve or thirteen years [L: Right...] and even do some TV interviews. I haven't suffered, or been sent to Guantanamo or so forth which indicates to an extent that there is a faction that does want some of this information to come out, and they themselves I think, feel that their hands are tied. I think by the time, say you go away to a major university and say you get a PhD in geology, physics or electrical engineering, whatever... one of the scientific or technical disciplines, and you go to work at the highest levels of the military-industrial-espionage-complex and you get sucked into the compartmentalised black world of clandestine operations, and then you go away and you start working in underground installations and you see all kinds of things that Ray Bradbury couldn't imagine in his wildest dreams [L: (laughs)], and you say, 'Holy moly! What's going on here? This doesn't comport with what I was taught', if you see things happening that are illegal, unconstitutional, unethical and massively so, and you thought of yourself as buttoned-down by the numbers [L: A regular person] law-abiding citizen type of person, and all of a sudden - what do you do?!

L: Yeah

S: You want to talk, but if you do, you're on your way to Leavenworth, Guantanamo, or maybe you won't live to see another day.

L: Right

S: Maybe you'll be kept in that underground installation and never surface again. So what do you do? [L: mhmm] Maybe you leak a little bit and I think that’s what’s going on.

L: So what is the most shocking thing that you have discovered in this research?

S: Well, from the beginning I had strong suspicions about undersea bases, from what I was told in 1992 in the middle of the night it raised questions along those lines but I couldn't find any documentation. But now I have, and the documentation shows unambiguously that, and this is in open literature, coming right out of Cheyenne-like naval weapons stations, it's perhaps the most interesting document I have along those lines, but certainly not the only piece of evidence that I found that strongly suggests that there are a large, deeply buried manned, and I would presume, womanned, clandestine installations down in the rocks beneath the sea floor well out to sea, and probably hundreds of miles and even thousands of miles of tunnels down in the rock beneath the sea floor connecting these installations and running to and from them from on land as well. I think that's the most, probably so far the most interesting thing I've found, but I've gotten documentary evidence, and also anecdotal evidence from multiple people now, and I'm not just talking two or three, but more than that indicating strongly that these facilities exist, and I've talked to a number of people involved in the planning back in the mid-1960's for these mid-ocean, deeply buried, down in the rock, beneath the sea floor, I'm talking, you may have thousands of feet of sea water, and then go down in the rock another two thousand feet.

L: Well, let me ask you, back, oh, I think it was probably 10 years or so [S: Yes] there were a number of newspaper reports up in the northwest area of the US, like in, Seattle, you know, Washington, [S: Yes] of strange thumping sounds that were coming from out at sea.

S: Well, you know, there are different things to understand about that region. One, that region is a seismically active region. Number two, the Juan de Fuca plate is right there with its associated fault and it directly abuts the North American plate right off the North American coast. So there's a lot of seismic thumping related to that [L: oh], there's a lot of earthquakes both in northern Oregon and all over Washington State, and especially in the Puget Sound- Seattle area, Tacoma area, and also offshore in that region, so, I would rule out that some of that could be seismically driven; on the other hand...

L: It was so rhythmic, and this was what the reports were about.

S: On the other hand, I don't rule out underground technology either.

L: Would these boring machines, these boring machines that you describe in your book, would they produce sounds like that?

S: You know, I don't think that they would make thumping sounds [L: No?] like that. They would have more of a rhythmic grinding sound.

L: Uh huh. How do they operate?

S: Well, I've seen documentation for a number of different kinds. I don't know what type of tunnel-boring machines are preferred in the black world, in the world of clandestine operations and secret compartmentalized projects. I don't know what kind of technology they have. I assume that it is a better, more sophisticated technology than what you find in the open, civil engineering world [L: Right], but already in the open civil engineering world, the technology is not (fabular??), those machines are electrically-powered, most of them, they're huge. They can be, I've seen in open literature, they can be up to 45, 46 feet in diameter or more in some cases and make gargantuan tunnels.

L: Bigger than a train.

S: Oh, far bigger than a train! Bigger than a house! [L: Jeez] Bigger than a three-story house!

L: And they're just, they're just like giant creatures that burrow?

S: They're like giant earthworms with thousands of horsepower that must grind their way into the bedrock, hundreds, even thousands of feet underground making these smooth-bored tunnels, symmetrical tunnels, and they can go for miles, I mean one of the best known, and most advanced tunnel-boring companies in the world is the Robbins company, and they're in Washington, south of Seattle, and they've been at it for decades. And you know, in the open literature I can document many hundreds of miles of tunnels that they have bored for a wide variety of agencies, including many government agencies so, that's on the public record for open engineering projects and I don't have any doubt whatsoever that in the black world they can do just as well and probably better what they do in the open world. The Robbins company is clearly one of those who would be involved in, since they have had so many contracts, with so many government agencies over a period of decades, and they make some of the best tunnel-boring machines and equipment in the world. They've been at it for a long, long time.

L: Have you ever come across any hints or clues in any of this material that you obtained that any of this is connected in any way to any kind of extra-terrestrial activity?

S: You see, i've asked that question repeatedly, including of insiders, and I will say that at least two cases that I remember clearly, and these were both people with extensive experience in underground facilities...we're talking insiders insiders [L: Um hmm] And these two, it was interesting I asked this question, and they both said, "Well, you know that's something that you certainly hear discussed at canteen near Area 51" [L: Hmm] And so of course, my follow-up question was, "Well, are there?"

L: [laughs] Right. Yeah, please tell us.

S: ..Area 51. Is there a factual basis for this thing discussed there? And they are very evasive, these people are sphinxes, sphinxes! This is a very closely held piece of information. But I think in my personal opinion that there probably are ET's, off-planet beings that are underground and undersea on this planet. That would be my educated guess. Can I prove it? No. [L: Right.] And I think the mere fact that when I posed the question, I've asked it of more than one person and I've asked it more than once, and when I think the person I'm speaking with may have some knowledge along those lines I always make sure I ask it. But I think it's interesting that at least on those two occasions dealing with people who absolutely would be in a position to know if it were true, that I didn't get a no, you see, they didn't say no [L: Right] And, what they did say was, "Well, it's certainly something you'll hear discussed in a canteen at Area 51.

L: That's a peculiar way to answer the question.

S: Yes. And both of them did answer it that way. I think it's a way of answering questions without violating their security [L: Exactly] Now, I also have asked more than one person, after they've given me that kind of response, "Well, have you worked with aliens or an alien underground or anywhere else?" And in both cases the answer I got was, "Not to my knowledge" [L: Ahhh] Again, the answer wasn't "No, that's preposterous, you're off in la-la land, what do you think, man? You've flipped your lid." The answer was "not to my knowledge"

L: That almost suggests they know or that they think something about these alleged ET's that makes it so that if you were working with one you might not know it.

S: No, because evidently, at least certain factions of the purported ET's are human, and sufficiently human that they could pass in our present society without attracting undue notice. [L: Exactly] And I in fact suspect that that's one of the reasons for the UFO cover-up which is firmly in place still in the US though the lid is loosening in places like Mexico and France and Brazil and China. But in the US still, it's glued down tight, as tight as they can get it.

L: Well you know this recent news about the releasing of the UFO records in France, it's not what people think it is. They think that the government was releasing its information and actually, what they released were simply the reports made by citizens and witnesses who had made sightings. They didn't [S: I understand that] They didn't release anything

S: well, but that's more than has ever happened in this country.

L: Well, that's true. That's true.

S: I understand it's an incremental step forward. And it is far from opening up their secret archives. I know all of that. The scene has its own secrets, and they guard them as carefully as the military-industrial-espionage complex does in North America. That said, it is still a step farther [L: right] than you have seen the alphabet soup in America go.

S: So, things are not as tight and as controlled in France and China and Mexico and Brazil and some other places as they are here [L:Right] where there things, where these things are more open than they are here. Still, I think that it is a tacit admission of sorts [L: Umm hmm] and you have to understand that these types of personnel work in an extremely compartmentalized world, where there are, it’s like a Russian doll, there are layers of secrecy within layers within layers [L: Umm hmm] within layers. It’s not just that there are secret passwords. There are secret vaults and secret facilities [L:Umm hmm] where you don’t get in unless you have your retina scanned and your palm print scanned and your voice print scanned, and you are weight and you have to submit a you know a magnetically coded identity card. You just don’t get in these places.

L: What do you think they’re hiding?

S: A lot. I’ll tell you some of the things they’re hiding. Certainly advanced weaponry. Far beyond nuclear weapons. I mean I think there is some truth to what I know you and your husband have looked at the stance at some of the pronouncements and writings of Thomas Beardon. Nonetheless, I do think there is some truth in what Thomas Beardon [L:Umm hmm] says has said and others.

L: Oh, we think there is some truth in it. We just think that if, you know, if there was the truth in it that there ought to be in it he wouldn’t be saying it publically. [S: Well I don’t know] If you catch my drift.

S: I don’t know. See. I don’t know what kind of connections Thomas Bearden has and it may be that what they have is so much beyond what he says that they don’t care or that the fact that they have it the attitude may be on the lines of na na na na na nana nana na na. [L:haha] So whatcha gonna do about it?

L: Well, that’s true

S: The other thing is what Thomas Bearden is saying and others like him is far from alone. Thomas Bearden and others saying similar things. The average person we’re talking 99 percent of the population are clueless [L: Right] They don’t know about Thomas Bearden. They can’t even understand you know 1 percent of what he’s talking about even if they run across it on the internet. So it, what if it matters from a practical standpoint.

L: True. I think that a lot of covering up is done that way. It’s not that it’s so much covered up as nobody cares or

S: In any event I am inclined to attach some credence to what Thomas Bearden and others are saying along those lines. [L:Umm hmm] I think there are, there is at least another generation of weapons even more frightful than nuclear weapons which already scare the sh.t out of me.

L: Would you think that something like that could have been used, say for example, on the World Trade Center to cause it to collapse the way it did?

S: I do. I think that we have, that the events at the World Trade Center were highly unusual [L: Yeah] and for sure that the military-industrial-espionage complex were involved in the events of that day, up to their eyeballs. [L: Right] So you’re dealing with, at the least, you’re dealing at with elements of FEMA, because FEMA apparently had advance notice that something heavy was going down in Manhattan that day, you have FEMA, you have NORAD, you have the FAA, you have the highest levels of the DOD you have the EOP, the Executive Office of the President, meaning Cheney and Bush and Condolezza Rice, evidently had some knowledge, the National Security Advisor, so at the highest levels of the American government, the Securities and Exchange Commission certainly had some knowledge of it, if not before the fact, after the fact, because of the massive peculiar stock transactions that took place related to that event, the events of that day. So you have multiple federal agencies that clearly have a substantial degree of insider knowledge pertaining to the events of that day, and the peculiar actions and activities that came down on September 11th, there is no doubt that highly secretive and powerful elements of the American government and military-industrial-espionage complex had substantial involvement on 9/11. No question. And I don’t think anyone who does any degree of serious research or reading into this topic can come to any other conclusion. And beyond that, was there so-called exotic or unconventional technology used on that day? Yeah, I think there probably was.

L: Have you researched any of the technology beyond tunnel boring machines, such as weaponry?

S: Well yeah, you know, this is one of the things I talked about in my first book and in my fourth book, which is in progress, and will be done whenever it’s done, if you follow me. I want to go more into that, more in depth into that, because yes, what you do find in the mining and engineering literature and underground excavation literature is that many of the techniques have been explored beyond conventional tunnel boring machines. Both the Soviets and the Americans and others have looked into using high-pressure water jets for tunneling and in fact this is a technology that’s in use, in some cases, for tunneling and mining and excavating. If you have water under very high pressure, the erosive power is terrific. [L: Yeah] And you can also control it very well, so you can just slice right through rock, solid rock, with water under very high pressure. Also sonic technologies for tunneling, various ray-gun style technologies, or using particle beams or microwaves, for example, and I discuss this a little bit in my first book. And of course there was also the research done at Los Alamos National Labs, were so many prevalent stories come out of, [L: Yeah] in northern New Mexico, about using nuclear powered tunnel boring machines, the so-call nuclear subterines, and associated technology, nuclear subcelines, for tunneling under the surface of the moon. And this is something that’s been discussed in the open literature as well, not just making sub-surface tunnels on earth using nuclear powered tunnel boring machines that will melt their way through the rock, but also on the moon, and by the way I would say parenthetically I do not rule out whatsoever one or more, and hear me well, one or more, clandestine manned space programs and also womaned space programs [L: That are going on that we don’t know about?] for decades, for decades [L: For decades?] Oh yes, and I think that the moon and the Mars, if I had to guess I would say that the Americans and probably the Russians and maybe the Japanese and Chinese and others have been coming and going in great secrecy to and from the moon and the Mars perhaps since the 50’s and 60’s.

L: How could they do that and nobody notice?

S: Well people have noticed, I mean there are people talking about it. It’s been my surmisal now for some time that that’s the case, I mean there’s a lot of discussion on the part of people about this, you have the alternative 3 scenario which has had currency in the alternative history, if you will, alternative reality underground both on the internet and other places. Where the rumor is that for decades the Russians and the Americans have been secretly coming and going to and from Mars.

L: Where would they launch the rockets from?

S: Well I would presume they’re not using chemical rockets.

L: Oh

S: I think they would probably use unconventional modes of propulsion, like um…

L: Anti-gravity?

S: Electrogravidic stuff, or anti grav modes, or perhaps just time folding

L: So you think they’re already doing this?

S: Time folding, for example if you know where Mars is at what time if you can, so to speak, dial in a time space coordinate, then you’re there, you don’t actually travel in a sense, you just relocate.[L: Shift] You shift. And I think that these types of technologies are probably in use, it may be that there are natural, if you will, tunnels, time-space tunnels that have been discovered, I don’t rule that out either. I think very little is understood about the earth itself. I think there are great mysteries on this planet that are all around us that we see and don’t even comprehend. We see them, yet we do not see them.

L: If they have all of this kind of technology, and all of this super duper fire-power, then why are they duking it out in the primitive way they are doing it in Iraq right now? I mean, what’s the reason for that?

S: Social control

L: Social control

S: Social control

L: Yeah, good answer

S: It’s also very profitable. [L: Yeah] Why wage these years long wars of attrition with basically 20th century weaponry when you have 21st or 22nd century weaponry, well you make a lot of money that way. I mean there are trillions of dollars in profits that are being made off of this.

L: And all of that money is coming out of the pocket of the American taxpayer.

S: So it’s one way to siphon off vast amounts of money and empower the military-industrial-espionage complex to do yet whatever

L: And impoverish the people

S: See our reality is so controlled, you have this massive show and tell, bread and circuses, to keep the mass mind occupied, dumbed-down, traumatized, malleable and tractable [L: yeah] and controllable, so you have a ready supply of slave labor essentially. [L: Exactly] So why then would you do that? Well that’s your answer isn’t it. [L: Yeah]

S: Now it doesn’t at all preclude vast projects from being carrying under the radar, secretly, compartmentalized, using trillions of dollars of funding that’s skimmed out of the economy, and there is open literature evidence for that, I mean I found it, Catherine Austin Fitts talks about it forthright in her writings, and Richard Dolan and others are out there talking about it. It’s no secret, we’re back around to what Jesus said, or is alleged to have said a couple thousand years ago “Let those who have eyes to see, see, and those who have ears to hear, hear" and in essence this stuff is out there, you either pay attention to it or you don’t.

L: And if you don’t, you’re dead.

S: It’s there to be seen, it’s there to be heard, it’s there to be understood if you will. [L: right] Now the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people neither want to see it, neither want to hear it, nor do they want to understand it.

L: And that is the truth.

S: So it doesn’t matter if it’s on the record. Because the people who put it out there understand that the vast majority of people, even if they see it, will say, um so what.

L: Well it seems that basically what you’ve done is uncovered some really nefarious activities on the part of governments and corporations and have…

S: What really bothers me about it is all of the great secrecy, it doesn’t bode well, and we’re not talking about small things here, were talking about trillions of dollars in expenditure, think of the tremendous negative drag this is on the planet [L: Yeah] These trillions of dollars that are being siphoned off that could be used in positive creative uplifting [L: Life-affirming] life affirming ways and they’re not. I mean we’re all suffering because of it of course there are many hundreds of millions of people in the so-called third world who are taking it on the chin, [L: Yeah] they’re just living from hand to mouth on a day-to-day basis and of course it’s a grueling, brutal, terrible way to survive, but even in the developed world, you have to understand, the so-called developed world, there are ten of millions of people, in the United States who are living in that way, really under third world conditions. [L: Yeah] So it’s directly contributing to massive suffering and it’s a direct cause of the impoverishment of many many millions of people right around the world, so on that level alone it is a bad thing, it is a theft from the collective well-being of the human race, it is a massive theft, it’s mind-boggling in its scope and yet it’s ongoing and has been for decades now, so even on the economic level it’s bad enough, but if you think about the technology that’s being held back, which again, if it were put to other uses rather than these very secret compartmentalized and military uses, I have to believe that at least some of it could materially aid suffering on this planet and [L: Of course] this planet could be a paradise, [L: It could be] it could be a Shangri-La. But as your writings have pointed out, and I think this, while we certainly do not agree on everything, and those who do not know us and are not privy to our communications, don’t know that indeed you and I Laura do not agree on everything, and we strongly disagree on some things. But I do agree with you on this point and you’re right, there is a certain sociopath or psychopath faction on this planet, and they’re everywhere, and unfortunately there are a fair number of them in the United States and this type of person, and they’re not all males by the way, there are a fair number of females [L: I agree] that fall under this profile too, but this type of person very much is attracted to positions of power and influence, whether it be in high finance, in industry, in espionage, in politics, in religion, in the academic world, in the mass media, in news and television and radio and movies. They gravitate towards these hierarchical institutions and bureaucracies, and have a way of insinuating themselves into the highest dog-eat-dog levels where they can exert the most power and influence, and unfortunately we have a plague of these personalities and individuals at the moment and they are doing their best to turn this planet into a living hell.

S: [continued] and to put as much of the rest of the human race under their jackboot as they can, and that is the reality in the year 2007 on planet earth. And we are struggling with that, those of us who don't like it and see what's happening, and wish it were otherwise.

L: Yeah, well, do you see any solution?

S: There's not an easy solution and unfortunately or maybe fortunately um... it is a start to talk about it which you have begun doing, and there are others, you're not alone in that. There um.. I think there's a growing number of people who see this problem or at least substantial parts of it, so in that respect we're ahead of were we were say 50 years ago. On the other hand, in the intervening 50 years the technology at the disposal of these people is so much more powerful, [L: Yeah] not the least of which is digital technology but then... weapons technology and then technology of social control has advanced quite a bit as well.

L: Yeah, awareness takes a step forward and then they take two steps forward with control.

S: And they're also very well funded, there [L: Extremely] [inaudible] ... trillions of dollars, money is not a problem for them. It's a problem for me. It's a problem for you.

L: Yeah it's a problem for us.

S: We struggle for money. We work hard, we labour mightily. They have access, as [inaudible name???] said to me in a conversation I had with her um... I mean I've talked about this with her and Richard Dolan and a lot of other people um... now you and I are talking about it, but I ask her, you know, what can you do with that amount of money because were talking about trillions of dollars, [L: Yeah] trillions that are just being siphoned off and it's really not clear exactly how it's being used although... you know, I and Richard Dolan and other researchers have some pretty good ideas as to how big chunks of it are being used, but we don't know how all of it is being used, nowhere near. And... but her answer to me was: "What can you do with that amount of money? Anything you want to. [L: Exactly] Anything at all.

L: And that's what their doing. And they're building [S: Anything you want to]... they're building these underground bases and [S: underground bases, under water bases] yeah...

S: I strongly believe, and there is... the evidence is tending that way in my view that there are at least one if not more secret space programs, not only American space programs, and by the way they don't have to be government run or military run.

L: Aha.

S: Say you're Bill Gates for example. And you have tens of billions of dollars at your disposal. You can run your own compartimentalized operation.

L: Yes you could.

S: With, you know, with 60 billion dollars you can buy any technology that is out there, you can buy your own, inhouse engineers and he does have his own inhouse engineers and scientists. He has whole buildings full of phd's in computer engineering, electrical engineering and so forth so, Bill Gates certainly can go out and buy his own, you know, entire rooms full of phd's with whatever expertise he feels he needs. He can buy whatever technology he needs, he can virtually develop whatever technolgy he needs in house. I'm not saying he personally has done that, but he's not the only [L: He could.] ultra-wealthy industrialist out there.

L: Yeah. What do you see in the immediate future, say the next one to two years?

S: Chaos.

L: Unfortunately I agree.

S: I see ah... I think we have entered into a period of what will prove to be frantic ferment, turmoil, change, um... evolution and devolution. [L: Yeah.] Perhapse we ought to spel devolution d-e-v-i-l.

L: [laughs]

S: Ah... well you could take in both sexes, [L: Yeah.] d-e-v-o-l as well. But I think that there's no question, because the earth's population continues to grow, it's very large now, in coming years it's going to get larger and larger and as that happens there's more pressure, um... social pressure, [L: Right.] both in societies, and between societies, there is more um... political pressure, more economic pressure in all sorts of ways because there's increased competition, not only for social resources but for uh... such as labour, to give one example, but there's also more competition for natural resources, we live on a planet with a known diameter and that's about what, [inaudible], it's about what eh... 25 thousand miles in change, it's not getting any bigger. [L: No.] But the human race is getting larger. And so as we grow from 6.5 billion to 7 billion to 8 billion to 9 billion, and that's the direction we have, eh... there's no more fresh water but there's increased demand for the fresh water that there is. There are no more forests, but there's increased demand for the forests that exist. There is no more agricultural land, but there is increased demand for producing more food from the agricultural acreage that exists. And so on and so forth. So we're gonna see more and more pressure, on the ecology, on the environment, on agriculture, on natural resources, eh, on and on across the board.

L: You know it's really a shame... [S: Pardon me?] It's really a shame that with all those trillions and trillions of dollars that they're spending for, you know, evil technology, they could be spending it to educate people, to reduce population...

S: The agenda is not for awareness and education, the agenda is to dumb down the masses, and we see that happening, the warehousing of children and students eh.. is happening not only in the United States, but in every so called advanced society in the world. You have this phenomenon of "Well you're five, six years old, off to school you go.", "What's that? You don't want to go? Well you have to go you see? And if you wont go we have these things called juvenile hall. [L: Hmm hmm.] And if the parents won't make you go, we have these things and these people called policemen. And they will come and arrest you, you know misses Mum and mister Dad. You will be arrested because your children are truant.". So, it's not really a choice here, it is [???]

L: There is no free will on this planet.

S: You will go to school. You just will.

L: And you will be dumbed down thereby.

S: And you will sit there, if you have to perform a biological function, you will ask permission! [silence] S: If you have to... you will eat when told, you will stop eating when told. You will raise your hand if you have anything to say, if you don't raise your hand and speak out of turn, you will be punished! This is social control.

L: Yeah.

S: And we've all been... Did you go to school Laura?

L: Yep.

S: Was it more or less as described?

L: Eh, well, I didn't do very well under that circumstance. [laughs]

S: Well you know I was speaking... And then we wonder why we have these eh... school shooters. I don't have to wonder! You have a certain percentage of these young men and it's mostly young men, well I think we've had one maybe two female school shooters but 98 percent plus is male. [L: Right.] And it's that the males are... when you're a boy you're full of energy! [L: Yeah.] You wanna do things! Instead you're told "You're gonna sit down, you're gonna shut up! You're gonna do what we tell you to do, when we tell you to do it, and demand that we tell you to do it. You're gonna think what we tell you to think, you're not gonna look at Mary Sue over there because that's wrong.". You know, "woman are not", you know, "for your sexual gratification.". Even though your biology is screaming to you: "Yes they are! They're intensely desireable!". [L: [laughs]] And I just spoke for every single adolescent male on this planet. [L: Mmyeah...] So what you do is you stuff these guys in these human warehouses and say: "Shut up!". "Shut up! No one wants to hear what you have to say. Don't even say it. Open that book, and read, and you write what we'll tell you to write, and that's it.". Is it any wonder that after years of that, some of these guys go ballistic? [L: No.] Especially after you've pumped them full of these psychiatric drugs [L: Yeah.] as is very common in schools these days? Is it any wonder that at least, you know, a few of them every year just explode? I'm not surprised.

L: And especially if you start out with one who's got, you know, psychological problems to begin with.

S: To begin with. [L: yeah] When you've pumped them full of these chemicals, and you tell them "Just shut up! Just sit down and shut up!" [L: Yeah.] It just doesn't work Laura, [L: No.] and we see it over and over and over again. And so finally, you know, some of these guys just say "No! No, YOU don't tell ME to shut up. And all the rest of you, you know my classmates who've been making fun of me all these years... well today is the day that I get back.". I'm surprised it doesn't happen more than it does.

L: Yeah. And all this is being eh... socially controlled and manipulated [S: Ofcourse.] from deep in these underground bases and facilities and...


S: ...the control fact across the board. Ehm... and so, far from alleviating the problem, it's making it worse, and as far as that, what's going on in schools, is really an indictment of our whole society and I think some people are waking up. Ehm... it just keeps happening again and again and again and again. So you have...

L: Well the answer that they give us is is that eh... well, obviously since it's happening we need more drugs, we need more control!

S: Which only worsens the problem. Which form their point of view, meaning the societal controllers, is desireable because the worse the problem gets, the greater the degree of social control that's clamped down because people [L: Will ask for it.] who are still mind controlled, will be begging eh... for release. [L: Yeah.] Not understanding in their confusion what true release would entail.

L: It would entail a painfull learning experience.

S: Yeah it... but the underground and underwater bases are defenitely part of this, and there's a psychological component of this. You know, psychiatrists and psychologists and mental health professionals are aware of the ehm... phenomenon of ehm... suppression. We have buried something, you know, [L: Hm hm.] [inaudible] emotions that are in your mind, instead of dealing with it you repress it, you suppress it, you... you squelch it, you just clamp it down. It doesn't go away, it's just buried at a lower level, it's repressed. And I think in a certain sense you could draw an analogy to what's happening with these underground and underwater installations. [L: They're...] It's as if there's a certain aspect of our collective psyche that hase been repressed and suppressed and buried down there [L: Hm hm.] out of sight, out of mind, ofcourse, it hasn't really gone anywhere, but there's an aspect of our collective life, eh... that we're denying, eh... that we're repressing, that we are shutting off, it's almost incestues. Like an incestues family where there are bad things going on but people don't talk about it because they don't want to go there. [L: Right.] In an analogues fashion, ehm... all these trillions of dollars being siphoned off, we all know, at a general level, something is wrong. People can feel this. Things aren't right. But you can't really articulate it in many cases. And part of it, a big part of it, is this massive compartimentalised structure, which a substantial percentage of this population are involved in. [L: Yeah.] I mean, we're talking many many thousands, tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people that have an involvement in some way with these many interlocking dog tailed, intrically dog tailed eh... compartimentalised secret black budget projects.

L: So they have a vasted interest in making sure that it stays undercover.

S: Very much so. And the mind control aspect of this is crucial. Now mind control operates on many levels. You have the electronic mind control technologies, eh the ones that I discussed for example the patterns in the kundalini (???) tails and similar technologies, and then you have HAARP, and the twin towers, and microwave technology and the cell phones which appear to have very bad effects on the human mind and the human brain but it's eh... it's ubiquotuos (???) now, this technology is, it's everywhere and everyone seems to have one um... though I refuse on many grounds so far to have a cellphone um... almost everyone does these days. And then, you have other forms, more prozaic forms if you will, of mind and social control, such as the public school system and the university system, then you have instititional religion like eh... christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism, and so forth, eh... then you have other means of social and mind control such as television, and on and on it goes. There's just an onslaughter of stuff and the average person does not understand how thouroughly controlled he or she is. [L: Right.] And it happens, when you begin to wake up, there's no end to the scales that continue to fall from your eyes... eh... you make it to the first one or two or three layers, only to discover, seemingly there's no end to it. This planet is controlled and locked down up, down and sideways, and has been for centuries if not for millenia. And the question is: why? Why must planet earth be locked down, dumbed down, so thouroughly controlled, and for so long? Why? Who and what is behind this?

L: That's the question we would all like to have answered. And of course you know...

S: They keep themselves out of the limelight for sure. They have many front men and many front woman, and you have to remember, and I didn't realise this at first but now I'm understanding, better and better, um... Women play a big role in this control game too! [L: Absolutely!] It's not just a male thing. [L: Oh, definitely.] And so many women for example just using the war problem, and there has been a war epidemic on this planet going back as far as we have records... we see, war. [L: Yeah.] Over and over, war, again and again. Now, so often, women have said "well, that's a male thing" you know. Well maybe in the past it was but now you know... there are many women in the American military and in some other militaries too. I mean for years women I believe have been in the Israeli military. [L: What about the Amazones?] The Amazones, and women are in the French military, so um... [L: Well I mean the um... you know the legendary woman soldiers, you know, the Amazones.] Woman are cerainly involved in warfare today. [L: Yeah.] Women certainly pay taxes, to support warfare. [L: Yes.] Woman certainly send their young soldier boys and now soldier girls of to war and are proud of their son who is in the army or airforce, or their daughter who just got her fighter pilot wings for... So I'm not accepting this buzz from feminism so long... [L: No.] "Well, war is a male activity." Excuse me, females have been in war and supportive of warfare, as long as there has been warfare. They've been cheering on their men, and not infrequently getting involved in the battles directly themselves. [L: Yep.] So it's not true, never was true, and it's not true today, that warfare is an exclusive male activity, because it simply is not. Women have been implicated in warfare themselves all kinds of ways, and among other things, how many women have liked the plunder and the booty that their menfolk brought back from war.

L: Unfortunately all too true.

S: So, this is something that the human race is afflicted with both male and female, we have the war bug bad. And, why? You could almost make the case, as some have, that our genetics have been tampered with, and that we have been ehm... our DNA if you will has been short circuited, to make us a rapacious [L: jealous, greedy] aggressive, warmongering species and that certainly seems to be what the majority of human beings are.

L: But then, if you look at what William Bramley discovered and his research, he set out to research war, and ended up writing The Gods of Eden, his conclusion was that basically most human beings would prefer peace, but because of eh, you know basically what amounts to psychopaths, although he didn't use that term, he used the control system, in that they were constantly being brainwashed into believing that they had to fight a war for this or that cause or the other cause...

S: Well, that's the question though. If people really don't prefer war, then why again and again do they go off and fight them? But I think you have to say no, they do! Or else, what... if the vast majority of people don't want war, then why aren't the majority of people just refusing to get involved? In fact we see, century after century, indeed down to the millenias, over thousands, many thousands of years, people do go off, I mean, by the millions...

L: It almost sounds like human beings are a curse on this planet, a blight.

S: It's almost like we're the cockroaches of the galaxy...

S: [continued] …at least this particular species on this planet, now what seems to me is that clearly, I’ve read Bramley’s book, years ago…I don’t currently have it in my library, it got out of my hands somewhere along the line, but I have read his book and his thesis, and indeed you can make a case similar to his, and I’m not dismissing his case. I think his argument has merit. There are many things going on and the situation is complex, among other things looking at what you see in the Bible for example and the Old Testament, also looking at the Egyptian record and looking at the archeological record here in the Americas, from what we know, and much has been held back, by the way, as you know, a great deal has been held back, but it’s clear to me…look at the skeletons that have been dug up for God sakes, [L: Right] looking at the freezes and the carvings and the temples in the Middle East, in Egypt and other places, that in the past indeed there were giants on the Earth and they were big! [L: Yeah] 10, 12 some of them 20 or 30 feet tall, huge huge human beings. Where they came from exactly is not clear to me, where they are now, and I think probably some of them are still around, but where they are now is not clear either, but it seems to be the fact that 3 to 10 thousand years ago there was a race of super beings, some of which were negro some of which were caucasian who were here. They were in the Middle East, they were in North Africa, they were in the Americas and they ranged anywhere from 8 to 25 feet tall.

L: Do you think they went into underground bases? [laughs]

S: I don’t know. I don’t know where they went. I don’t know where they came from, but clearly they where humans beings but a different sub-species, not like us, they were both larger in stature and their intellect was clearly greater than that of the average human being. They built on a large scale, they had high technology, they left megalithic architecture and monuments all over this planet.

L: Yeah, something was going on.

S: Well and the question is where they came from, and they definitely lorded it over us, homo sapiens sapiens, for thousands of years. Now they have transitioned off of the public stage but perhaps they just made a transition to another form of control where they are no longer in the limelight, front and center, but now make extensive use of puppets who do their bidding while they remain in the background. I’m wondering if that’s not the case.

L: Well that’s kind of the Sitchin thesis, the Annunaki idea, and I’m wondering if it’s so much that as it is…of course I go for the hyper-dimensional ultra-terrestrial thesis with possible actual extra-terrestrials that are physical.

S: [Inaudible]…and more. It may be that there are more than one species of human on this planet, indigenous to this planet, it may be that there are ultra-terrestrials, it may be that there are extra-terrestrials, it may be that human beings are common in the galaxy and that the situation we are facing is confused, ancient, complex and fraught with importance for every single faction involved, every single multiple human faction involved…those of indigenous terrestrial origin, those of extra-terrestrial origin, those who are ultra-terrestrial, and that the game isn’t won at once. Ancient, confusing, complex and very high-stakes, and hard to understand.

L: Well and I think on that note we’ll just encourage the listener to get a copy of your latest book as soon as they possibly can, when it’s re-released, which is Underwater and Underground Bases by Richard Sauder PhD, and Underground Bases and Tunnels, which has a subtitle: what is the government trying to hide? And then we also have Kundalini Tales which is a fascinating journey into the mind, the soul, and hidden realities that Richard writes about, his own experiences and how he came to the knowledge and understanding that he has today, that we have enjoyed listening to you, to your ideas, which I think are pretty much on the money, and I hope that the listeners are going to look forward to getting a copy of your book as soon as you get it re-released. If they were to try to get a copy, where would they go?

S: I would suggest the online book distributors like, for example, [L: Right] you can still find some used copies there and some of the other book distributors, just do a keyword search on my name and those books, and you may pay a little more in some cases or if you’re lucky you might find a used copy in circulation out there. You might also, if you’re in a used bookstore look in their UFO or paranormal types of sections, conspiracy sections, you might get lucky, find a used copy there, but I currently am not selling them anymore, and until and unless I reprint them, people will have to sniff around online and in used bookstores and try to scare up copies of my books.

L: Ok, well thank you very very much Richard for talking to us about this very very interesting research and material that you’ve uncovered, and I think that it’s extremely important for everyone to be aware of what’s going on underwater and underground.

S: And also above ground

L: [laughs] Amen. Ok, thanks

S: Thank you Laura.